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Compassion For A Convicted Murderer?
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E-mailMade Popular Jun 15 2008
United States :
Susan Atkins, convicted in the brutal slaying of actress Sharon Tate, 8½ months pregnant with her unborn son in 1969, along with other followers of Charles Manson and Manson himself, is requesting a “compassionate release” from her life sentence in prison on the grounds that she has been diagnosed with terminal brain cancer and has six months to live.
Susan Atkins at her 1969 trial.
Susan Atkins after parole denial, 1985
In testimony before the Grand Jury, Atkins told of Sharon Tate pleading for her life, “Please let me go. All I want to do is have my baby.” She also said that she tasted Tate’s blood and found it to be “warm and sticky.” She then took some of Tate’s blood and used it to scrawl, on the porch wall, “PIG.”
After her arrest on unrelated charges, Atkins told of “a beautiful cat” named Charles Manson. She told of the murders,
“of finding Sharon Tate, in bed with her bikini bra and underpants, of her victim’s futile cries for help, of tasting Tate’s blood. Atkins expressed no remorse at all over the killings. She even told fellow cellmate Virginia Graham a list of celebrities that she and other Family members planned to kill in the future, including Elizabeth Taylor, Richard Burton, Tom Jones, Steve McQueen, and Frank Sinatra.”
Sharon Tate
After one of America’s longest trials, Atkins, along with Charles Manson, Charles “Tex” Watson, Patricia Krenwinkel, and Linda Kasabian were found guilty of first-degree murder and all received the death penalty! A California Supreme Court ruling in 1972 declared the state’s death penalty law unconstitutional thereby commuting the five’s sentence to life in prison.
All convicted for the brutal 1969 slayings have repeatedly been denied parole.
Debra Tate, Sharon Tate’s sister and last living relative said,
“I don’t want to seem like a heartless creature, but in all my years, I never considered this could happen. She showed no compassion. She told my sister as she slit her throat that she didn’t care for her or her unborn baby. If I could, I would say to her that I would pray for forgiveness on her soul at her moment of death when she has paid her debt to society. At that point, I’ll show compassion and pray for her soul.”
Margaret DiMaria, the sister of Jay Sebring, also murdered at the house that evening said,
“It is most unfortunate that Ms. Atkins now suffers a terminal illness. However, in the eyes of the law and in memory of her victims, I fail to see how one thing correlates to the other. She repeatedly committed crimes requiring evil premeditation and executed them in a cavalier manner that afforded her victims no mercy. The sentence Ms. Atkins now serves should not be mitigated because fate has struck this blow.”
Vincent Bugliosi, former Los Angeles prosecutor who prosecuted the murders said,
“She has paid substantially, though not completely, for her horrendous crimes. Paying completely would mean imposing the death penalty.” In regards to her “terminal illness,” Bugliosi added, “I don’t have an objection to her being released.”
Claiming “Born Again Christian,” Atkins has a website devoted to her “life since incarceration” boasting of
“Her life, her accomplishments since incarceration, her work with the Church, the Community and the needy, and her eligibility for parole.”
Her attorney husband, James W. Whitehouse, maintains the site.
Reading through the websites list of Accomplishments, one could come to the conclusion that the heinous murders she participated in and boasted of later were minimal compared to her accomplishments while incarcerated, neglecting her part in the earlier Gary Hinman murder, or that she was originally sentenced to death.
She repudiated her Grand Jury Testimony and through the years has claimed that her participation in the crimes was passive and that she didn’t actually kill anyone. After hearing the death sentence imposed upon her, Atkins proclaimed, “Better lock your doors and watch your own kids.”
39 years later, Atkins now requests “compassion.” Compassion she denied an 8 ½ months pregnant mother as she held her down while she was being stabbed to death and whom she told she didn’t care about as the actress lay dying.
Does someone who showed no compassion and boasted of a brutal slaying deserve compassion herself? Does being terminally ill merit compassion for release when time after time, paroles were denied and the person was originally sentenced to death for the brutality and heinous nature of the crimes?
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Bobette
Jun 15 2008
New Orleans,
United States
I believe she should die in jail at the least; she should have been put to death a long time ago.
Comment Link
(Local Perspectives)
Isn’t it a strange irony that the conservatives who associate more with religion and stuff like that are in fact the strongest advocates of the death penalty and weapon-holding rights?
Anyway, I think she has served her time and should be immediately released. Yes, she committed a heinous crime, but no crime is gross enough to warrant a medieval retribution in the name of punishment like death or entire life behind bars.
As a society it is our duty to reform people, and that goes for the so-called ’unreformable’ criminals. We must not give up trying.
As far as the particular case is concerned, she has already served nearly 40 years in prison. That’s more than the average life expectancy of almost half the world’s countries.
She has terminal brain cancer and in any case would not live more than six months. What purpose would it serve the government to keep her in the pen for another six months spending taxpayers’ money?
Also, is this the same person who killed someone brutally nearly 40 years back? With time people change. We must understand whom we are punishing - a criminal or a person who has reformed/changed?
Anyway, I think she has served her time and should be immediately released. Yes, she committed a heinous crime, but no crime is gross enough to warrant a medieval retribution in the name of punishment like death or entire life behind bars.
As a society it is our duty to reform people, and that goes for the so-called ’unreformable’ criminals. We must not give up trying.
As far as the particular case is concerned, she has already served nearly 40 years in prison. That’s more than the average life expectancy of almost half the world’s countries.
She has terminal brain cancer and in any case would not live more than six months. What purpose would it serve the government to keep her in the pen for another six months spending taxpayers’ money?
Also, is this the same person who killed someone brutally nearly 40 years back? With time people change. We must understand whom we are punishing - a criminal or a person who has reformed/changed?
(Global Perspectives)
Many states in USA still have death penalty. It is one of the very few savage countries still existing. The USSR had it along with its notorious labor camps in Siberia. But after its disintegration all former Soviet republics including Russia have their dark past and abolished death penalty.
USA is in the league of countries with great human rights record such as -
China
Iran
Saudi Arabia
North Korea
Cuba
Pakistan
Syria
Sudan
Vietnam
All the above mentioned countries are beacons of democracy and champions of human rights. I forgot to mention that Japan and Singapore also falls in that category.
USA is in the league of countries with great human rights record such as -
China
Iran
Saudi Arabia
North Korea
Cuba
Pakistan
Syria
Sudan
Vietnam
All the above mentioned countries are beacons of democracy and champions of human rights. I forgot to mention that Japan and Singapore also falls in that category.
(Global Perspectives)
Showing compassion to mindless sadistic killers will prove to be detrimental to the cause of crime alleviation because the deterrence factor that the prospect of punishment brings in the minds of potential criminals will simply evaporate. There would always be one compassionate ground or the other to urge leniency. She must die in jail so that in her last moments she realizes what she missed.
(Global Perspectives)
The EU has no death penalty and most countries do not have long prison terms like say 50 years or entire life. Despite that Germans were executed in the United States (the LaGrand brothers) violating international laws and show complete contempt for German sentiments. If such a society will not produce a Susan Atkins then what would?
(Global Perspectives)
I find it quite boring whenever I see some one talking against harsh punishments and death penalty. Do you have any idea what the victim goes through? Just imagine the victim of a petty crime such as pickpocketing while one is boarding a train. This happened to me once and I was left with no money, no ticket as the wallet where I stored them was picked. I was in a desperate situation as I was traveling some 3000 km. That time you can't help but wish to chop the hand that picked your pocket. Do criminals think compassionately? When they don't they should expect none from the society.
(Global Perspectives)
No one deserves any mercy after committing such an atrocious crime. I agree with Bobette that the female should have been put to death long time back. She took a life and in her death she wants compassion. She must be kidding.
(Global Perspectives)
Not done! Simply not done! Show her the same compassion that she showed to her victims. I can't believe what she has done. Murdering someone is different thing. But what she did afterwards like licking her victim's blood is simply evil.
(Global Perspectives)
Compassion for Susan Atkins? Ye why not? But that might just give the conservatives a shot in the arm. Remember Michael Dukakis? He supported the prison furlough program... And if a convicted murderer like William Horton could be released who went to commit rape and assault after being furloughed why not this dying woman? But then Dukakis went down. America is the wrong country to talk about compassion. We can't talk about right things in wrong countries.
(Local Perspectives)
I think the relatives of two of those killed in 1969 are entitled to be heard over calls for compassion to a person who not only showed no compassion, but told the intended victim she did not care about her or her unborn child.
Both spoke out and do not believe she deserves mercy today.
In the Christian religion, which she now claims to cling to, it is taught that one must atone for their sins and obey governments, unless their laws are contrary to Gods. To atone for a sin one must must actively seek the forgiveness of their victim. But, their victims are dead, murdered by her actions and assistance. She cannot seek forgiveness from a dead person, so any forgiveness must be left to God.
If she really has done much good for others in prison, I applaud her efforts. Still, she committed a heinous and brutal crime and as a professed Christian, must abide by the judgement passed upon her for those crimes.
For those so against the Death Penalty in the first place, one thing is certain. Once carried out, that criminal will never harm another.
Both spoke out and do not believe she deserves mercy today.
In the Christian religion, which she now claims to cling to, it is taught that one must atone for their sins and obey governments, unless their laws are contrary to Gods. To atone for a sin one must must actively seek the forgiveness of their victim. But, their victims are dead, murdered by her actions and assistance. She cannot seek forgiveness from a dead person, so any forgiveness must be left to God.
If she really has done much good for others in prison, I applaud her efforts. Still, she committed a heinous and brutal crime and as a professed Christian, must abide by the judgement passed upon her for those crimes.
For those so against the Death Penalty in the first place, one thing is certain. Once carried out, that criminal will never harm another.
(Local Perspectives)
Lewis Waters:
I guess you just applied for a permanent residency visa for either the Wahabi Sunni Saudi Arabia or the Shiite ghetto of Iran. Else, how come you could come out of a puritan Shariat diktat as - "I think the relatives of two of those killed in 1969 are entitled to be heard over calls for compassion to a person who not only showed no compassion, but told the intended victim she did not care about her or her unborn child."
I wouldn't be surpirsed if you advocated blood money for murder victims next time. :P
I guess you just applied for a permanent residency visa for either the Wahabi Sunni Saudi Arabia or the Shiite ghetto of Iran. Else, how come you could come out of a puritan Shariat diktat as - "I think the relatives of two of those killed in 1969 are entitled to be heard over calls for compassion to a person who not only showed no compassion, but told the intended victim she did not care about her or her unborn child."
I wouldn't be surpirsed if you advocated blood money for murder victims next time. :P
(Global Perspectives)
@Lewis:
Sir, you are a war veteran! Do you know what you are saying? I am appalled by your mentality. Forgive me Sir, but this is simply unacceptable:
This effectively means that the United States of America and its soldiers who bombed and killed innocents are beyond any pardon. Think of all the wars - Asia Pacific during WWII, North Korea, Vietnam etc.
May Lord Vasudeva have mercy on you and your likes.
Sir, you are a war veteran! Do you know what you are saying? I am appalled by your mentality. Forgive me Sir, but this is simply unacceptable:
To atone for a sin one must must actively seek the forgiveness of their victim. But, their victims are dead, murdered by her actions and assistance. She cannot seek forgiveness from a dead person, so any forgiveness must be left to God.
This effectively means that the United States of America and its soldiers who bombed and killed innocents are beyond any pardon. Think of all the wars - Asia Pacific during WWII, North Korea, Vietnam etc.
May Lord Vasudeva have mercy on you and your likes.
(Global Perspectives)
Jonty, yes I am a Veteran of War. I know full well what I am saying.
There is no comparison to a veteran and a criminal. A criminal commits a deliberate act to harm innocents. A Warrior does not.
If one of us does deliberately target and harm an innocent, they are held accountable under our Uniform Code of Military Justice, an additional set of laws governing members of our Military.
Of those that may accidentally harm an innocent one, they often pay a dear price personally few in the public know of, sometimes resulting in suicide over their guilt.
I just lost a fellow Veteran friend a few weeks ago due to guilt over his helicopter crashing in Viet Nam when he wasn’t on board. He had nothing to do with their deaths but carried the guilt until he couldn’t take it any longer and killed himself.
Sorry, but there is no comparison between the two.
There is no comparison to a veteran and a criminal. A criminal commits a deliberate act to harm innocents. A Warrior does not.
If one of us does deliberately target and harm an innocent, they are held accountable under our Uniform Code of Military Justice, an additional set of laws governing members of our Military.
Of those that may accidentally harm an innocent one, they often pay a dear price personally few in the public know of, sometimes resulting in suicide over their guilt.
I just lost a fellow Veteran friend a few weeks ago due to guilt over his helicopter crashing in Viet Nam when he wasn’t on board. He had nothing to do with their deaths but carried the guilt until he couldn’t take it any longer and killed himself.
Sorry, but there is no comparison between the two.
(Local Perspectives)
Greetings Mr. Waters, I totally agree with you. I am ex-military so I know and understand the UCMJ.
@Jonty, I would like to know how you would feel if someone had killed one of your family members?
My brother was killed 7 years ago. A witness said that he was told to take off his clothing and run; he was shot in the back of his head and died instantly. The police never found his murderer but if they had I would want him to be sentenced to death as he sentenced my brother to an unwarranted, and untimely death for no reason at all. He was a year away from graduating from Loyola University as a Journalist.
I think of him often and sometimes cry as I am doing right now.
@Jonty, I would like to know how you would feel if someone had killed one of your family members?
My brother was killed 7 years ago. A witness said that he was told to take off his clothing and run; he was shot in the back of his head and died instantly. The police never found his murderer but if they had I would want him to be sentenced to death as he sentenced my brother to an unwarranted, and untimely death for no reason at all. He was a year away from graduating from Loyola University as a Journalist.
I think of him often and sometimes cry as I am doing right now.
(Local Perspectives)
@Lewis:
I know the difference between a criminal and a soldier who kills. Then why soldiers’ arguments that ’they were following their superiors’ orders’ are not accepted when they are tried for war crimes?
A criminal is a criminal by any other name. When you were napalming and spraying Agent Orange in Vietnam didn’t you know that you were committing war crimes? If you were made to think and believe that what you were doing is for the good of your own country, or for that matter mankind then it is your fault and not the government whose orders you were following through the chain of your command.
People with conscience experience guilt and people without never. That’s what makes both a soldier and a cold blooded murder regret whatever wrong they did.
You narrate the story of your fellow brother soldier’s story who died with a guilt in his heart. That’s an aberration. How many soldiers who rounded up unarmed Vietnamese villagers, shot them and burned their houses have that kind of guilt in their hearts? I am not talking just about the United States soldier, but of every country that fought a war.
Would then your argument - ”To atone for a sin one must must actively seek the forgiveness of their victim. But, their victims are dead, murdered by her actions and assistance. She cannot seek forgiveness from a dead person, so any forgiveness must be left to God” - fit in there as well?
Just think.
I know the difference between a criminal and a soldier who kills. Then why soldiers’ arguments that ’they were following their superiors’ orders’ are not accepted when they are tried for war crimes?
A criminal is a criminal by any other name. When you were napalming and spraying Agent Orange in Vietnam didn’t you know that you were committing war crimes? If you were made to think and believe that what you were doing is for the good of your own country, or for that matter mankind then it is your fault and not the government whose orders you were following through the chain of your command.
People with conscience experience guilt and people without never. That’s what makes both a soldier and a cold blooded murder regret whatever wrong they did.
You narrate the story of your fellow brother soldier’s story who died with a guilt in his heart. That’s an aberration. How many soldiers who rounded up unarmed Vietnamese villagers, shot them and burned their houses have that kind of guilt in their hearts? I am not talking just about the United States soldier, but of every country that fought a war.
Would then your argument - ”To atone for a sin one must must actively seek the forgiveness of their victim. But, their victims are dead, murdered by her actions and assistance. She cannot seek forgiveness from a dead person, so any forgiveness must be left to God” - fit in there as well?
Just think.
(Global Perspectives)
How can we be sure that if Susan gets out of prison to live out her ”dying days” that she wont kill again? What if she is just trying to get out to kill someone else; she has nothing to lose, her life is almost over and she spent most if it incarcerated anyway. Sorry Jonty I just dont trust her.
(Local Perspectives)
@Bobette:
How many such cases happen when there is a combat operation in civilian areas? I do not have the statistics because there are never any accurate one ever that comes out. Whatever trials we see against soldiers suspected of criminal offences (like it happened in Iraq where a 14yrold was raped and killed along with the other members of her family), it is just a tip of the iceberg. With now a million plus dead in Iraq since 2003, there is bound to be many, many more summary killings that includes some recreational target practices by stressed and bored soldiers. Think of what their families would see those clod blooded senseless murders as?
My point is crime and punishment is a very broad and subjective thing. It is also very complex. This cannot be discussed in black and white so simply as Lewis has tried to in his article and subsequent comment.
That’s all I have to say.
My brother was killed 7 years ago. A witness said that he was told to take off his clothing and run; he was shot in the back of his head and died instantly. The police never found his murderer but if they had I would want him to be sentenced to death as he sentenced my brother to an unwarranted, and untimely death for no reason at all.
How many such cases happen when there is a combat operation in civilian areas? I do not have the statistics because there are never any accurate one ever that comes out. Whatever trials we see against soldiers suspected of criminal offences (like it happened in Iraq where a 14yrold was raped and killed along with the other members of her family), it is just a tip of the iceberg. With now a million plus dead in Iraq since 2003, there is bound to be many, many more summary killings that includes some recreational target practices by stressed and bored soldiers. Think of what their families would see those clod blooded senseless murders as?
My point is crime and punishment is a very broad and subjective thing. It is also very complex. This cannot be discussed in black and white so simply as Lewis has tried to in his article and subsequent comment.
That’s all I have to say.
(Global Perspectives)
Jonty, your comment is the most insulting words I have read here to date. You state assumptions with absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You assume and state that I released napalm and herbicides as a “war crime.” Yet, you have not documented, real documentation, not some left winged morons claims, that innocent civilians were deliberately targeted by such.
For the record, herbicides, like Agent Orange, were NOT used as a weapon, but as a defoliant to deny our enemy a place to hide to kill us from.
As for what good I was in Viet Nam for, please explain why many millions were slaughtered after the Communist took over and why untold thousands took their lives in their hands escaping the “benevolence” of those who conquered them to give them a better life.
I grew up in South Florida, my friend and Cubans are still risking their lives in rickety boats escaping Communism from that small Island nation.
You allude to the My Lai massacre and show a total lack of knowledge of the event, just the hate America propaganda spread everywhere over it. You do not mention the very public trials of American Soldiers who are accused of wrongdoing. We do not hide those accused of wrongdoing to Iraqi civilians, they are paraded before the world and if the charges are found to be baseless and the soldier acquitted, people like you could care less. You have something to throw towards another.
Allow me a brief moment to educate you on a small and totally ignored matter concerning My Lai. An American Helicopter Pilot who landed his helicopter between the civilians and those few soldiers, leaving his crew orders to shoot any American soldier who shot another round, stopped the massacre by a small handful of American Soldiers.
Now, I will throw another one your way. A public trial was held over My Lai. Can you show me the transcript or any articles covering the trial or conviction of those Communist North Vietnamese involved in the Hue Massacre?
Elsewhere you mention the rape of a 14 year-old in Iraq and the murder of her family. Again, you fail to mention, or you ignore, that the accused were tried publicly and those convicted sentenced with more trials waiting.
While you are at it, can you show me how those who saw off a civilians head on video, while he is screaming and hold it up before a camera, were tried or convicted? Or, does your hatred only extend to American Military?
Incidentally, the guilt my friend carried wasn’t that he had killed any Vietnamese, but that his helicopter crashed, killing all on board, when he wasn’t on it.
In trying to equate Soldiers to criminals, you actually disprove your own premise because you totally ignore the fact that soldiers do not receive carte blanche to commit such crimes in war. At least, not the American Military.
I stand by my first words; there is absolutely no comparison. If our Soldiers commit a crime while at war, they lose any and all Military Status upon conviction. Not just for the time they may be imprisoned, but also for all time with a Dishonorable Discharge, after being stripped of all rank and awards.
I assume you have little more than cursory knowledge of Christianity, but our Holy Book contains a passage many take to heart. John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
Don’t try to paint the misconduct of a very small few as indicative of the millions of honorable men and women who over the years placed their lives on the line to stop despots and tyrants.
For the record, herbicides, like Agent Orange, were NOT used as a weapon, but as a defoliant to deny our enemy a place to hide to kill us from.
As for what good I was in Viet Nam for, please explain why many millions were slaughtered after the Communist took over and why untold thousands took their lives in their hands escaping the “benevolence” of those who conquered them to give them a better life.
I grew up in South Florida, my friend and Cubans are still risking their lives in rickety boats escaping Communism from that small Island nation.
You allude to the My Lai massacre and show a total lack of knowledge of the event, just the hate America propaganda spread everywhere over it. You do not mention the very public trials of American Soldiers who are accused of wrongdoing. We do not hide those accused of wrongdoing to Iraqi civilians, they are paraded before the world and if the charges are found to be baseless and the soldier acquitted, people like you could care less. You have something to throw towards another.
Allow me a brief moment to educate you on a small and totally ignored matter concerning My Lai. An American Helicopter Pilot who landed his helicopter between the civilians and those few soldiers, leaving his crew orders to shoot any American soldier who shot another round, stopped the massacre by a small handful of American Soldiers.
Now, I will throw another one your way. A public trial was held over My Lai. Can you show me the transcript or any articles covering the trial or conviction of those Communist North Vietnamese involved in the Hue Massacre?
Elsewhere you mention the rape of a 14 year-old in Iraq and the murder of her family. Again, you fail to mention, or you ignore, that the accused were tried publicly and those convicted sentenced with more trials waiting.
While you are at it, can you show me how those who saw off a civilians head on video, while he is screaming and hold it up before a camera, were tried or convicted? Or, does your hatred only extend to American Military?
Incidentally, the guilt my friend carried wasn’t that he had killed any Vietnamese, but that his helicopter crashed, killing all on board, when he wasn’t on it.
In trying to equate Soldiers to criminals, you actually disprove your own premise because you totally ignore the fact that soldiers do not receive carte blanche to commit such crimes in war. At least, not the American Military.
I stand by my first words; there is absolutely no comparison. If our Soldiers commit a crime while at war, they lose any and all Military Status upon conviction. Not just for the time they may be imprisoned, but also for all time with a Dishonorable Discharge, after being stripped of all rank and awards.
I assume you have little more than cursory knowledge of Christianity, but our Holy Book contains a passage many take to heart. John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
Don’t try to paint the misconduct of a very small few as indicative of the millions of honorable men and women who over the years placed their lives on the line to stop despots and tyrants.
(Local Perspectives)
Compassion For A Convicted Murderer? I don’t think for this.
(Global Perspectives)
I have NOT tried to insult you. I can understand why you feel that way because you completely misunderstood what I wanted to say through my comments. This means it is not my fault but yours.
Now allow me to point some of them here.
Why did you take it personally? The YOU is not for Lewis Waters only. I know Agent Orange was sprayed to clear forests so that you can drop your bombs where people were. Bombing campaigns by US planes were as indiscriminate as the bombing campaigns on cities by enemy bombers during WWII, including of course the London and Tokyo bombings. Since 97% of Vietnamese were rural population, the real magnitude of the brutality they faced in the hands of US forces will never be known apart from an estimated 3,000,000 Vietnamese dead out of which 2,000,000 were civilians. I am not even counting another 700,000 Cambodian and 50,000 Laotian civilian deaths in the war. I agree that not all the civilians were killed by the US forces and AVRN. The NVA also killed civilians. But that’s another story altogether.
American troops’ conduct in Vietnam was despicable, disgraceful, dishonourable, shameful, petty and criminal to say the least. If someone takes pride of being a party to the brutalization and massacre of one-third of the entire civilian population of a country then he is nothing less than a sadistic pervert.
Don’t cite sporadic examples of soldiers tried for criminal activities or a soldiers who had conscience. This endangers your own defence of being hijacked by those who oppose your views on such issues citing Matthis Chiroux. Of course, for you he is nothing more than a cowardly deserter running away from call of duty.
Perhaps you have lost your concentration power a bit. I made it abundantly clear in my comment that I am speaking not just about the US military. If something that I wrote escaped your notice, here it is again:
I am not talking just about the United States soldier, but of every country that fought a war.
A person who takes up arms to defend the borders of his country or fight for is cause is an honourable man. A man who would always be a respected figure in the society. That is what differentiates between a soldier and a lesser mortal. His uniform is his source of pride and source of others’ envy. But a criminal is a criminal by any other name. Whether he is in an uniform or not is not an issue. It shouldn’t be. As far as the US military is concerned, it has carried out more human rights abuses and war crimes than the militaries of all other nations combined after the WWII. This doesn’t include what they did to their own people like Soviet Union, China, Zimbabwe. I am taking about those taken place in a foreign campaign. Going by what we are seeing today in Iraq and Afghanistan, it seems that the non-existent carte blanche does indeed exist. Only when the news becomes public, some action is taken.
Anyway, that was not what I intended to say or get into. I just wanted to know your thoughts on your own arguments when it comes to your brother soldiers who killed innocents in war. I found your arguments to be oxymoronic.
That’s all Sir, nothing personal.
Now allow me to point some of them here.
* You assume and state that I released napalm and herbicides as a “war crime.”
Why did you take it personally? The YOU is not for Lewis Waters only. I know Agent Orange was sprayed to clear forests so that you can drop your bombs where people were. Bombing campaigns by US planes were as indiscriminate as the bombing campaigns on cities by enemy bombers during WWII, including of course the London and Tokyo bombings. Since 97% of Vietnamese were rural population, the real magnitude of the brutality they faced in the hands of US forces will never be known apart from an estimated 3,000,000 Vietnamese dead out of which 2,000,000 were civilians. I am not even counting another 700,000 Cambodian and 50,000 Laotian civilian deaths in the war. I agree that not all the civilians were killed by the US forces and AVRN. The NVA also killed civilians. But that’s another story altogether.
American troops’ conduct in Vietnam was despicable, disgraceful, dishonourable, shameful, petty and criminal to say the least. If someone takes pride of being a party to the brutalization and massacre of one-third of the entire civilian population of a country then he is nothing less than a sadistic pervert.
Don’t cite sporadic examples of soldiers tried for criminal activities or a soldiers who had conscience. This endangers your own defence of being hijacked by those who oppose your views on such issues citing Matthis Chiroux. Of course, for you he is nothing more than a cowardly deserter running away from call of duty.
* You allude to the My Lai massacre and show a total lack of knowledge of the event, just the hate America propaganda spread everywhere over it. You do not mention the very public trials of American Soldiers who are accused of wrongdoing.
Perhaps you have lost your concentration power a bit. I made it abundantly clear in my comment that I am speaking not just about the US military. If something that I wrote escaped your notice, here it is again:
I am not talking just about the United States soldier, but of every country that fought a war.
* In trying to equate Soldiers to criminals, you actually disprove your own premise because you totally ignore the fact that soldiers do not receive carte blanche to commit such crimes in war. At least, not the American Military.
A person who takes up arms to defend the borders of his country or fight for is cause is an honourable man. A man who would always be a respected figure in the society. That is what differentiates between a soldier and a lesser mortal. His uniform is his source of pride and source of others’ envy. But a criminal is a criminal by any other name. Whether he is in an uniform or not is not an issue. It shouldn’t be. As far as the US military is concerned, it has carried out more human rights abuses and war crimes than the militaries of all other nations combined after the WWII. This doesn’t include what they did to their own people like Soviet Union, China, Zimbabwe. I am taking about those taken place in a foreign campaign. Going by what we are seeing today in Iraq and Afghanistan, it seems that the non-existent carte blanche does indeed exist. Only when the news becomes public, some action is taken.
Anyway, that was not what I intended to say or get into. I just wanted to know your thoughts on your own arguments when it comes to your brother soldiers who killed innocents in war. I found your arguments to be oxymoronic.
That’s all Sir, nothing personal.
(Global Perspectives)
Jonty, your statement of, ”American troops’ conduct in Vietnam was despicable, disgraceful, dishonourable, shameful, petty and criminal to say the least,” proves you know absolutely nothing about the Viet Nam conflict.
It is you who takes the misconduct and despicable acts of a small handful and projects them onto the entire 2.5 million of us who served there, while ignoring that those small handfuls were prosecuted.
You would find my comments ”oxymoronic,” but why let facts interfere with your prejudices?
It is you who takes the misconduct and despicable acts of a small handful and projects them onto the entire 2.5 million of us who served there, while ignoring that those small handfuls were prosecuted.
You would find my comments ”oxymoronic,” but why let facts interfere with your prejudices?
(Local Perspectives)
I agree that she has served her time and should be immediately released.
(Global Perspectives)
@ Bhagaban:
Whom do you agree with ?
Whom do you agree with ?
(Global Perspectives)
Compassion can be shown to people who show genuine remorse. She is not that kind. I would have no problems if we released a person who has killed and served a long enough sentence if he had shown remorse and asked for forgiveness. When Tookie Williams was executed in the US, many cried foul.
They all claimed that he changed and he must be spared. What they didn't know was that he never repented for the crime he was sentenced to death and stood by "I DIDN'T DO IT". Because he didn't show remorse or asked for forgiveness I didn't think he deserved mercy.
They all claimed that he changed and he must be spared. What they didn't know was that he never repented for the crime he was sentenced to death and stood by "I DIDN'T DO IT". Because he didn't show remorse or asked for forgiveness I didn't think he deserved mercy.
(Global Perspectives)
Why should a terminal illness excuse her? Boo-hoo, sob-story. What about the 2 (yes, don’t forget the unborn baby) lives that she could care less about as the mother pleaded to be spared.
I think it’s horrible and selfish to even think of asking to be let out of prison. She took 2 lives and it was no accident. This woman had no remorse and could still probably care less. She needed/needs mental help...IN PRISON. Something definitely wrong with her mental state don’t you think??? People like that should not be let back into society.
An eye for an eye...
I think it’s horrible and selfish to even think of asking to be let out of prison. She took 2 lives and it was no accident. This woman had no remorse and could still probably care less. She needed/needs mental help...IN PRISON. Something definitely wrong with her mental state don’t you think??? People like that should not be let back into society.
An eye for an eye...
(Local Perspectives)
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